This Week In College Viability (TWICV) - Special Episode: Dr. Brian Rosenberg, author: 'Whatever it is, I don't like it'. Dec 13, 2023

Gary (00:02.87)
Welcome to another special episode of This Week in College Viability. My name is Gary Stocker. My guest today is interesting in many ways. First, he was a longtime president and you don't see that a lot these days. He was a longtime president of a private college, McAllister College in Minnesota. And second, he is really good at naming books. His recently released book, Whatever It Is, I Don't Like It,

has to be one of the best named books I have ever seen. And the author is here to talk about his book and about higher education in 2023 and beyond. Brian Rosenberg, welcome to this week in college viability. Brian, who gets credit for the book title?

Brian Rosenberg (00:45.216)
Well, I think the credit has to be shared. I was the one who came up with that as an original working title. I thought that the press would abandon it and go to something like Resistance to Change in Higher Education, but the marketing people at Harvard Education Press pushed for that title and they won. And so I'm very grateful that they did and they kept it.

Ultimately, the credit has to go to Groucho Marx because it is, as you know, a quote from a song that he sings in the movie Horse Feathers. So let's just say that the credit for it is shared.

Gary (01:26.086)
But again, I still giggled the title because it's so appropriate in many ways. And actually, when I do these podcasts, my preparation is I read the books, and I like to go through chapter by chapter. And Brian, I didn't even get to the first chapter. I was reading a preface and your very first paragraph says, you can't see the label from inside of the bottle. You can't see the label from inside of the bottle.

And there is certainly a higher education bubble for experts and for faculty and staff and presidents. And we're all inside that bubble. What, Brian, what guidance would you give to those of us in that bubble to help us gain a better understanding of higher education's challenges from the perspective of both students and faculty?

Brian Rosenberg (02:12.936)
Well, I can tell you, Gary, what helped me, which is, first of all, retiring from a college presidency and going back into the classroom and actually teaching about the industry in which I've spent my life. And so when you teach about something, you really need to take a, I think, a dispassionate and careful look at it. And that was a great opportunity for me. And then doing work outside the United States. And I've been doing work for the last...

three years at a university in Africa where the situation is completely different. And so it allowed me to get outside that bubble as you described it of American higher education. You know, what I would recommend to people who are in higher education is to talk to people who are outside it and get a sense of how it is being perceived. Because one of the things we're seeing right now with,

all of the drama around the congressional hearing and anti-Semitism really has its roots, I think, in a gradually increasing public loss of confidence in higher education. And it's really important for people who are inside it to talk to people who are outside it, people who they respect, smart people, to say, what do you think about what

concerns do you have about us and why? I think it would be very instructive.

Gary (03:45.218)
In the first chapter, there's a line in the book, and I'm gonna read that line. And you talk about, and I quote, the irresistible force of economics and demographics is running straight into the immovable object of college governance and culture. And there's a line, and I've used it often, that culture eats change for lunch. Brian, is that really what your book is about? And is it describing the current culture and offering guidance on how to move that culture without being eaten?

Brian Rosenberg (04:16.556)
To be totally honest, it's easier to diagnose the problem than it is to prescribe a solution. But the short answer is yes. The problem that, or the problems that higher education faces are numerous and obvious, beginning with the financial challenge, which affects the vast majority of public and private colleges in the United States.

It's easy to see. I'm an English professor. I'm not a math professor or an economist, and it's easy for me to see. And the fact that despite that, there's been very little change in the model, very little serious attempt to bend the cost curve suggests that there is some sort of very serious impediment. And I think the essential argument of the book is that impediment is,

embedded both in the culture and in the practices of traditional higher education. So, you know, I have some ideas about how to change things, whether they are, whether they are realistic or not, it's hard to say.

Gary (05:27.746)
Yeah, yeah. And again, I'm staying in the first chapter and you offer that real change, major change to higher education is necessary. Yet the title of your book, While Entertaining, and we've talked about that, suggests that that's a tough assignment. Share your thoughts in general about the change and maybe throughout a timeframe, you think that change might be needed just for the industry as a whole.

Brian Rosenberg (05:53.308)
So I think there are two numbers that I use when people ask me why I think higher education needs more than slow incremental change, and they're 56 and 46. 56% is right now the average discount rate at private colleges in the United States. That is private higher education in the United States is on sale for more than half off. And that number has been growing.

non-tribually every year. And that is a process that cannot continue because eventually you end up with a discount rate of 100% and you're giving it away for free. And so to those who think that change is not necessary, I say, all right, fix that. How do you respond to that fundamental economic problem?

combined with a demographic decline that's going to take place over the next decade. 46 is the percentage of African-American students who enter college and graduate within six years. In my view, that is unacceptable and reveals a dramatic inefficiency in the system and inequity in the system.

And again, I ask those to think the changes are necessary. How do you understand that number and are you comfortable with it? So I think, I think there are problems both with the economic model and with the effectiveness and efficiency of higher education in its current form. And how do you, how do you change that? You know, I think that we need to stop thinking about doing things the way we've always done them.

and start thinking about doing things the way we need to do them in the future, which does mean changing some of the practices and eventually changing some of the cultures on American college campuses and maybe look outside higher education at some other industries, outside the United States and some other countries, to see if there are lessons that could be learned about how change actually works.

Gary (08:05.582)
And one of the things I've written about and talked about in all the media that I use is this is at its heart, a supply and demand issue. There are too many college seats and not enough college students to fill those seats. And I make the argument, I'm going to ask you if I'm right or wrong. I make the argument, Brian, that no amount of programmatic changes are going to change that basic economic law. Am I right or wrong?

Brian Rosenberg (08:28.272)
I think there's no question you're right. I mean, the reality is that no matter what happens in higher education over the next 20 years, the supply and demand are going to have to right size themselves. And right now in the United States, there is an oversupply of college seats and an undersupply of students to fill those seats. And that situation is going to get worse.

over the next 10 or 15 years, particularly in the Northeast, the Mid-Atlantic, and the Midwest. And so, much as we might want every college that exists in the United States right now to survive, they all are doing some important things. They all have value to people. The reality is that the current situation is not sustainable. Colleges will close. And,

even if they do all of the right things, the size of the market and the economic demands of the market will lead to fewer colleges 10 and 20 years from now than exist right now. There's a law in economics that's called Stein's law, which simply says if it's impossible for something to continue, it won't.

And I think that would be applicable to higher education right now, if it's impossible for the status quo to continue.

Gary (09:57.422)
As I read the book, and for those listening in on the podcast, and Brian and I talked about this, I read the book in three days, four days, something like that. It may not fit the category of page turner, but it was just so well done. And Brian, the analogy that I kind of came up with is you kind of wrote this like a physician. You had symptoms, and then you offered some treatments for the symptoms and diagnosing the disease. And one of the symptoms you talked about was the academic calendar.

Brian Rosenberg (10:24.508)
Mm-hmm.

Gary (10:25.426)
And you referenced that there is probably no other industry that makes such ineffective use of its physical plant than higher education. You also noted in that same section that college courses are typically taught only for about 30 out of the 52 weeks in a year. Now those are both embedded cultural components to higher education. Based on your research, based on your experience, do you believe that those changes will be organic

Or will there need to be some sort of cataclysmic financial sequence of events to get faculty to look at items like these?

Brian Rosenberg (11:03.124)
You know, we and this is a statement I think that doesn't just apply to higher education But we have a tendency in the United States to wait until something is on the brink of collapse before we address it you think about our health care system and our infrastructure and Unfortunately, I think that is likely to be the situation with higher education I think there is lots of evidence already existing that

a three-year college degree and a more efficient and restricted calendar can work. The University of Africa that I'm working with, the African Leadership University, offers a bachelor's degree over three years by offering essentially three 15-week terms divided by three-week breaks. And it saves students money and it saves the opportunity cost of being out of the job market for another year.

We know that can work. We know that there's no decline in learning. But it's going to be very, very hard given not just the culture in American higher education, but a lot of the contracts, faculty contracts in American higher education to change that. There are many faculty members who are unionized, and those union contracts dictate the number of weeks a year that they teach.

At McAllister, the faculty contract, even though it was paid out over 12 months, specified that they would teach for nine. And so there is a lot that will have to change, both culturally and contractually, to make that shift, but I really do believe that forced by circumstances, you will begin to see some colleges try to offer.

a better value proposition by getting students to graduation and to their degree in three years rather than four. But it will take, unfortunately, it will take desperation to get to that point.

Gary (13:07.054)
That's sad in so many ways, but I think you're right. And I want to step outside of it for just one second here. And I want to talk about the high school impact. And this is just kind of Gary Stocker talking. As I watched the hundreds and hundreds of colleges, Brian, with really just pathetically low four and six year graduation rates, and you mentioned the 46 number a little bit ago, I've often wondered what role...

high school education, even substandard high school education has on such low four-year college graduation rates. In your mind, in your opinion, is there a connection to be made with high school education and college graduation rates?

Brian Rosenberg (13:46.824)
They're inseparable. So if you look at the at the sector that has the lowest graduation rate, which is community colleges It's very easy to point one's finger at community colleges and say you're doing a terrible job But the reality is that because of the inadequacies in our k-12 system community colleges two-year colleges have to spend a disproportionate amount of time on what

is often described as remedial coursework. That is coursework that students should have done, things that they should have learned in high school. And so it's unsurprising that if you're spending half your time just getting students ready for college, that it's gonna be very difficult to get students to graduate from college on time. So I think in the institutions with the lowest graduation rates,

There are a lot of factors, finance is a factor, student support is a factor. But one of the factors is students who are simply unprepared for college and either need to take a lot of remedial courses or leave or don't succeed academically because they're not prepared. So we really need to think of it as a K through 16 system and understand that years...

13 through 16 are deeply dependent on that K through 12 progression. And if that K through 12 progression isn't working, then the rest of it's not going to work. It's not accidental that the students who tend to do best in college come from affluent, well-funded either private schools or suburban schools because they are better prepared for a college environment.

Gary (15:38.57)
And my background, believe it or not, is in healthcare. I'm a medical laboratory scientist by training. And you caught me in the book, you noted that when we buy most of the stuff we purchase, we kind of have some idea of what we're buying. Computers and phones, cars, gallons of milk houses, that kind of stuff.

Yet like medical care, you make the point, where precious few folks actually know what they're buying for their insurance or out of pocket fees, you make the case that higher education is similar. How so? 1

Gary (16:11.926)
How is higher education similar to healthcare?

Brian Rosenberg (16:12.496)
Um,

So higher education is an example of what economists call a credence good, which means that when you purchase it, you don't really understand what you're getting, not only when you're doing the purchasing, but after you've completed it. So people select a college, they have no real way of knowing whether that college is better than any other college. And when they...

complete that college, they have no real way of knowing whether what they got is what they needed. And with credence goods, what tends to happen is in the absence of the presence, at the absence of firsthand knowledge, people tend to rely on things like rankings and the opinions of experts and on reputation. And that's why things like the US news rankings are so influential. And that's why the reputations in higher education are both so static.

and so influential because people have very little firsthand evidence to go on. You don't get to go to college five times and decide which one offered you the best education. Just like when you go into a surgeon's office and he says unless you get this joint replaced, you're going to have a big problem. You have no real way of knowing whether that's right or wrong or whether you would be better or worse off if you took a particular medication.

You have to trust the opinion of the expert. And for consumers of higher education, that means that they rely very heavily on things like US news rankings.

Gary (17:57.947)
And I think we're having some audio issues, but I'll just edit those out, so don't worry about it.

Brian Rosenberg (18:01.393)
Okay.

Gary (18:04.07)
So Brian, we tend to spend a lot of time studying the top and the bottom ends of the higher education market. The top 50, 100 colleges, something like that, and the bottom, those that are about to close or doing layoffs, those kind of things. But not really much in my experience on the middle. Those colleges that are unlikely to close but kind of face a mostly monthly tuition paycheck to tuition paycheck kind of existence.

Do you believe that maybe those are the types of colleges and universities that will lead to change in areas like mergers and consolidations and scheduling and other things?

Brian Rosenberg (18:42.504)
They probably will have to be. The colleges at the top that you described have the means to change, but not the incentive. The colleges at the bottom that you described have the incentive to change, but not the means. That is, they know they need to change, but they just don't have the resources to try new things or to do more than simply cut to try to stay alive. The institution is in the middle.

are the ones that have some combination of an incentive to change because they don't have multi-billion dollar endowments and they don't have five percent admission rates. But they're also not, as you say, in danger of immediately closing. They have some resources, some brand strength, some opportunity. And so I think it's those institutions, the ones that know

keep running it back every year and be secure, but also have some opportunities, some resources, some energy to try something new. That's probably where you're most likely to see innovation come from within American higher education. That is not at the very top, as you say, and not at the very bottom. And the good news is that the majority of institutions do fall into that.

middle category. And so of those hundreds and hundreds, hopefully there will be a few that decide that they want to try to do something other than what they're doing right now.

Gary (20:23.242)
I tell a story about Cardinal Stretch University, which you and I know closed up in Milwaukee earlier this year. And yeah, and the story that I tell is that the week after, the president of Stretch and the name escapes me, did an interview, and I think I saw it on YouTube or recorded somewhere, in which he effectively rationalized the closure. Right, and as I listened to it, I was a little distressed, but really as I stepped back and pondered that, the president's...

Brian Rosenberg (20:28.456)
Mm-hmm. And know it well.

Gary (20:50.026)
of these colleges and their board members have that fiduciary responsibility to protect the best interests of the colleges. And that's exactly what the president Cardinal Stritch and the others that have closed in the coming and the recent months and stuff are doing. But my question kind of moves away from that is there's a fiduciary for the colleges, the president, CFO, board members. Is there a fiduciary for students and faculty? And if not, should there be?

Brian Rosenberg (21:15.976)
Of course, I think that you have multiple responsibilities as the leader of an institution. And one of them is to protect the reputation and the financial stability of the institution. But ultimately the institution exists to serve students. And the institution wants to be fair in its treatment of its employees. And so...

any decision has to be made with all of those groups in mind. And what we've seen in the closures of some colleges, and these are the ones that have been most poorly handled, is the blindsiding of students. It's clearly not in the interest of a failing college to broadcast the fact that it is failing, because that will tend to accelerate the failure. But in

Prioritizing that, sometimes colleges have failed to prioritize the interests of the students who are blindsided and the employees who are blindsided by the closure of an institution that may have been proclaiming up until the prior week that everything was just fine. So it's a tough balancing act. I would never pretend that it is easy. But

Gary (22:29.527)
Yeah.

Gary (22:33.27)
It really is.

Brian Rosenberg (22:38.756)
You know, my experience is that it doesn't take a financial genius to look at the financial trajectory of an institution and understand that there is probably an end point ahead. And once you see that clearly, it's probably in the interest of everybody to begin to very honestly and visibly wind things down rather than just have people show up one day and find the doors locked.

Gary (23:07.286)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm gonna go back into the book and I wanna read a quote. And this is one of the quotes that is entertaining. And the quote reads like this, Drew University, I'm looking for a new president, Drew University proclaimed that in this job description that the university seeks a bold visionary who is innovative, entrepreneurial, inspiring and financially astute. Don't we all you say?

And in reality, you go on, most presidents are far from messianic. And it is not even clear if a messiah could be transformational within most college and university settings. Now, Brian, I'm guessing your tongue was firmly embedded in your writing cheek when you wrote that. But what are the odds that higher education in general and college faculty in particular?

Brian Rosenberg (23:48.584)
Yeah.

Gary (24:00.566)
respond when higher education experts, and certainly you've got to be in that category and you can define it any way you want. What are the odds that these higher education folks will respond when I do this, too, when we lovingly make fun and challenge the perspectives that they offer through statements like this?

Brian Rosenberg (24:22.5)
They don't love it. You know, yeah, yeah. You know, I get it. Nobody likes to have their world be challenged. And one of the things I tried to do in the book was make it clear that I was in my own career in many ways as guilty of some of these things as.

Gary (24:25.319)
Is that from experience?

Brian Rosenberg (24:48.54)
the people working in higher education. When I was a faculty member, I would have defended to the death my right to tenure. And I was deeply suspicious of the administration without knowing very much about what the administration actually did. So I think an important part of critiquing something is humility and not trying to argue that you are better or smarter than other people.

But just that your experience and your vantage point has given you the gift of being able to look at some things in a way that is perhaps different from how you looked at them before. But no, generally, I have found that it is pretty difficult for leaders in higher education to critique faculty without paying a.

pretty heavy price and it's one of the reasons why it's easier for me to do it as an ex-president than as a sitting president.

Gary (25:49.878)
Fascinating in so many ways. And I've got just a couple of questions left, but before I go there, you mentioned earlier in the podcast that you're doing some work with higher education in Africa. Would you mind sharing with the listeners what that's all about, what you're doing, the history behind that?

Brian Rosenberg (26:05.768)
Sure. There's a graduate of McAllister, who I've known for a long time, named Fred Swannaker, who has become one of the leading nonprofit entrepreneurs on the continent, and who believes that the key to Africa's future. And remember, the average age in Africa is 19. The average age in the United States is 38. It's got the fastest growing population in the world, and the population that is

most underserved by higher education. And his belief is that only if that can be changed can the trajectory of the continent be changed. And so he's founded a number of educational institutions, including the one I'm working with, the African Leadership University, which is now about eight or nine years old with a main campus in Kigali in Rwanda. And the goal...

in designing this university is to try to provide a high quality education at scale, at a cost that at least some people in Africa can afford. So right now the tuition for a year at ALU is $3,000, not $30,000 and not $70,000. And the retention rates are very high.

closer to what you'd expect to see at an elite American institution than what you see at most American institutions. And the vast majority of students who are graduating are getting jobs, which in Africa is a very big deal. The model is very, very different. Students don't take a major, they choose a mission. The model is a mix of in-person, online, and experiential learning.

which helps both lower the cost and I think improve the quality of the education. And it is an experimental work in progress that could never have taken place, I think, within an American context because it is just so different and it faces so few of the impediments to change that I've described in American higher education.

Brian Rosenberg (28:28.408)
There are many people going back to Clayton Christensen decades ago who've written about the fact that it's easier to change the legacy industry from without than from within. It was easier for Apple to disrupt IBM than it would have been for IBM to disrupt itself. And his theory always was that was what was going to happen to higher education, that it was going to be disrupted from without. I think his assumption is that it would happen

Gary (28:46.134)
Interesting.

Brian Rosenberg (28:57.608)
through technology and for-profit companies. That may be the case, but another possibility is that it happens from less developed economies and in regions of greater constraint where they have to experiment. They have to innovate. Fred likes to say constraint drives innovation. And when you don't have enough PhDs, when students don't have a lot of money,

When you can't build multi-billion dollar campuses, and when you need to educate students, what do you do? Well, that's the question that people in Africa have to confront. And some of the answers that they're coming up with, I think, can teach those in more developed systems a lot. And so that's why I find it so fascinating to work on. I always, as a college president, used to fantasize about,

What would it be like to build a college from scratch? And in effect now that's what I'm getting to participate in and it is, I'm learning a lot and enjoying it.

Gary (30:06.686)
And there's more details in the book. And again, Brian Rosenberg is my guest today and his book was, whatever it is, I don't like it. And the Africa stuff is fascinating, both as you explain it, Brian, and in the book itself. So you're starting a college from scratch and then you present that well, is well worth investing in the book. But let's go back to the United States for just a couple more quick questions. And I wanna go back to a quote.

And again, I think you probably had your tongue was hurting you because you had it in your cheek a lot as you wrote many of these lines in the book. And this one is the easiest way to survive for extended time in a college presidency is to stay in your lane, raise money, give speeches, show up at sporting events and balance the budget. But do not try to interfere, you write, with the actual core academic work of the institution and then you wrap it up with there be dragons.

Now, that quote is hardly an endorsement for college leaders to rock the proverbial education boat. Do we talk about, is this the old line where a crisis is a terrible thing to waste? Does that apply to some or all segments of higher education?

Brian Rosenberg (31:08.572)
Right.

Brian Rosenberg (31:17.676)
You know, I would hope so. I mean, I've thought a lot about the presidents who do seem to have had more than a minimal impact on the trajectory of their institutions. And, you know, the names are familiar to most people, Michael Crowe at Arizona State, Paul LeBlanc at Southern New Hampshire, Leon Botstein at Bard. And you know, the reality is what...

what those presidents have in common, whether you like what they've done or not, is that they've essentially ignored shared governance. They have acted more like the leaders of corporations. And that's not something that typically sits well within higher education. It's not something that's possible at most institutions, but for a variety of reasons, they've been placed at institutions where it was possible.

But for most of us who were in those jobs, reality is that we have a lot less power than people think and a lot more constraints. At McAlister, according to the faculty handbook, the faculty had responsibility not just for the curriculum generally, but for things like the elimination of an academic program. An academic program could only be eliminated through a vote of the full faculty.

That is not a recipe for change. And most college presidents step into situations in which they are surrounded by constraints of those kinds. And when you do try to push against them, the evidence suggests that it doesn't often go well. There is a reason why.

The average tenure of a college president has over the past 10 or 15 years dropped from about eight and a half years to fewer than six years. There's no one reason for it. But I think one of the reasons is the fact that there is this tension between the need for change and the resistance to change. Presidents push against it, and more often than not, they don't succeed, and they either leave voluntarily or they're forced out.

Gary (33:38.762)
Yeah, I think this happened so much. And just yesterday, Bradley University, just south of you in Peoria, announced their cutbacks, both the programs and faculty. And I can't remember the date, but the faculty have already gone through their no confidence vote. And the presidents are trying to make wise business decisions for better or for worse. And any business change, any change to the business model, and there's always going to be protests. This is America. I understand that. But it's almost formulaic in that you make a business change announcement, you know there are going to be protests.

happens time after time again. I've got just two more questions. And there was a chapter on disciplines, Brian, that you talked about that faculty members are typically more loyal to their disciplines than they are to their institution. I look at that statement through the lens of a faltering private college. In your experience and your observations, does a near college death experience tend to change the loyalties from department?

toward the college.

Brian Rosenberg (34:41.072)
It can. I think certainly, again, drawing upon McAllister's experience, many people don't know that even though McAllister right now is an affluent institution and highly selective, in the 1970s it almost shut down because it had no money. And the faculty at that point banded together. The faculty voluntarily took an across the board 15% pay cut.

in order to preserve the jobs of their colleagues. And so clearly, they were thinking institutionally. So it can happen through crisis. I think there are other less dangerous ways for it to happen. My experience is that institutions that build into their curriculum some kind of common experience in which all faculty participate tend to create different faculty cultures than ones that are entirely shaped by departments.

So, you know, I spent five years at Lawrence University as the chief academic officer. Lawrence has for more than a half century had what they call freshman humanities, all faculty regardless of discipline teaching that program. And I think it's created a sense of community and coherence within that faculty that I didn't necessarily see at McAlester.

And I think the same is true at places like Columbia, where they have the core curriculum and at the University of Chicago and a few other places. Or Sinus College has created a program like that within the last decade or so. And I've heard from people there that it's really brought the faculty together. So I think when faculty do things that take them outside their departments, it's more likely to create.

a culture of community within the college. When they remain entirely in their disciplines, that's less likely to happen.

Gary (36:40.818)
And then finally, I'm going to read the question, then I'm going to ask you to apply it to some different stakeholders in higher education. And it's, of course, your chance to rise to the mountaintop and provide guidance to those listening to this podcast. And here's the question. If there's one tip or piece of guidance you want to give to each of these groups, what is it? If there's one tip or piece of guidance you want to give, college boards, what's the one piece of guidance you would give to college board of trustee members?

Brian Rosenberg (37:09.016)
Understand the difference between oversight and management, but be engaged. You can't see being on a board simply as an opportunity to come to campus a few times a year and relive the memories of your college days. You really need to bring the expertise and the knowledge that you have from your various fields of endeavor to bear upon the institution.

to help it deal with its challenges. There's a lot that can be learned, as I said earlier, from other industries and without trying to run the college, help the college learn that. And remember always that your first responsibility is the wellbeing of the mission and the financial sustainability of your institution.

Gary (38:03.578)
and your peers that are college presidents in 2023 heading into 2024. That one piece of guidance you would give to them based on your experience and work.

Brian Rosenberg (38:14.564)
Don't assume that things will be the same 20 years from now as they are now. And try to make decisions that will benefit the school, not just tomorrow, but in the future. I really believe that the work of a college president, if properly done, rarely bears fruit during the college presidency. Your job is to make sure that the person holding your job 20 years from now,

has an opportunity to succeed. And that means thinking long-term and not just thinking about what is best for you or for the college tomorrow.

Gary (38:52.502)
And of course, faculty. What's that one tip you would give to the prototypical faculty member in higher education?

Brian Rosenberg (38:59.724)
Educate yourself about higher education, about your institution, about its economics, about the pressures that it faces, and bring the same open mind and thoughtful perspective to your workplace that you bring to your discipline. Just the way you approach a problem in your field.

by looking at the evidence and trying to come to the best conclusion. Do the same when you're thinking about the state of and the future of the college and university at which you work.

Gary (39:38.754)
and to the typical, the traditional college-age student.

Brian Rosenberg (39:44.2)
College is still worth it. And college is not for everybody. And I would never, never argue that it's for everybody. But a college degree is still one of the best investments you can make in your life. Make that investment carefully. And try when you go to college to find the right balance between doing things that you love and that enrich you.

and doing things that will give you the skills that will prepare you for a future of employment. But don't lose faith in college. It is still, it is still the easiest doorway to a better life.

Gary (40:28.802)
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And then the last one, before we wrap this up, is kind of an interesting niche, the parents of the traditional college-age students. What one piece of advice, guidance would you give them?

Brian Rosenberg (40:40.312)
It is, I think, a cliche, but don't simply be guided by college rankings. You want to make sure that the institution to which you are sending your children is financially secure and will provide a good learning environment for your children. But the single most important thing when someone goes to college is to do well. It's not the reputation of the college, it's to do well.

And so do everything you can to try to find a college that's the right match for your children, one in which they will thrive and one in which they will do well because that's a better predictor of success than the ranking of a college in U.S. News.

Gary (41:25.482)
And Brian, how do our listeners get a copy of whatever it is, I don't like it, the book?

Brian Rosenberg (41:31.576)
It's available from Harvard Education Press on their website. It's also available on Amazon as both an ebook and a physical book and also from bookshop.org which will allow you to purchase the book through your local independent bookstore.

Gary (41:53.91)
Dr. Brian Rosenberg has been my guest today. His recent book, whatever it is, I Don't Like It, is fascinating in many ways. And the seven chapters, I think, are exquisitely balanced and logical as they step the reader through where higher education has been, where it needs to go, and even how to get there. And I think I shared with Brian, I read the book in three to four days. And Brian, the only other time I did that was Tom Clancy's books back in the 1980s and 1990s.

Brian Rosenberg (42:18.576)
Ha ha!

Gary (42:21.062)
And to our listeners, you know this, the industry is changing. Sticking one's head in the proverbial sand and hoping for the best is a dangerous and problematic approach. And there are folks who will move forward and Dr. Rosenberg talked about those and he adds, he offers guidance to those. And I think I believe it's not I think I believe the first movers as colleges will have a distinct competitive advantage.

So wait for change, make the change, hide from the change. Whatever it is, I don't like it. Can help you decide which of those roles you want for yourself and your organization. Brian Rosenberg, a pleasure.

Brian Rosenberg (43:03.24)
Pleasure to be here, thank you for having me.

Gary (43:05.238)
This is Gary Stocker. I'll be back next Monday with a regular podcast of This Week in College Viability. So long for now.