How to get the most out of college - Elliot Felix

Gary (00:02.966)
Welcome back to another episode of This Week in College Viability. My name is Gary Stocker. Today, we're speaking with Elliot Felix, and Elliot has founded and leads a strategy consultancy called Brightspot, which I think is really Elliot on a mission to transform the higher education experience, but really a focus to increase student success. And his book that was just out in January of 2022 is How to Get the Most Out of College.

and it has 127 evidence-based tips for success in college and beyond. And it received a blue star from Kirkus Reviews, calling it a knowledgeable, enthusiastic guide packed with strategies and encouragement. Elliot, welcome and thanks for making some time for us.

Elliot (00:51.005)
I'm happy to be here, Gary, and thank you. And I am hopeful that I can be knowledgeable, enthusiastic, and encouraging in our conversation.

Gary (01:01.614)
Okay, well, I read the book and I only wish, Elliot, that I could come up with 127 evidence-based things for anything. But the book is a how-to about college, and there are countless books about how to, regarding the college experience, how is this one different?

Elliot (01:20.869)
Well, it's a great question and there are lots of other great books out there. I think, you know, the thing that makes how to get the most out of college unique and, and helpful, uniquely helpful, I think is part of it is, is based on my, my own experience and my own perspective, because after working for more than a hundred colleges and universities, I realized I learned a lot about how they worked.

And I really wanted to pass that along to students and families so they could make it work for them. And I learned a lot about how students succeed. And I really wanted to share that with, with students. So their journey through college could be more successful and, and they could really make it their own and they could take full advantage.

of everything that their college and university offers. And so the way I tried to be as useful and as unique as possible was really thinking about today's attention spans and the amount of time that people have. And so I really tried to structure it in short practical tips. So each page, you know, and you know, lots of these are half a page, quarter of a page, full page, but...

Each page has a tip and it talks about what to do, why to do it, the evidence behind why to do it, suggestions on how to do it, and then a quote or a story of a student, you know, putting that advice into, into practice. And I felt like that, what, why, how short practical thing would, would really be helpful. And I also found a lot of the other guides that are out there.

sort of fall into two camps. They're either quite dense and serious, and they're almost written for a student who doesn't need it. If they're reading a book that's that dense, they probably already know what's in it. Or they're super fun, and they're fluffy, and they're like, how to get along with your roommate. And I really tried to sort of split the difference and make something that's accessible, but also research-based, the kind of thing

Elliot (03:44.381)
can and does get used in a first year seminar and really span like from the admissions process to college to career.

Gary (03:56.214)
So before we go through some of the 127 tips, and we're not going to go through all of them for those of you listening, it's how to get the most out of college, 127 ways to make connections, make it work for you and make a difference by our guest, Elliot Felix. But I just want to read a couple of the chapter headings. And I want to go to tip seven as the first one I want to talk about. So the chapters are entitled ones, knowing yourself, knowing your college options, thriving in class, feeling supported, building relationships, mastering technology,

your campus, exploring career paths, and many more. Tip number seven is get the most from your admissions tour. So Elliot, from your perspective, what are the top three maybe tough questions you would you would encourage students and their families to ask their college admissions reps?

Elliot (04:46.789)
Well, tip seven, I think is a lucky one. And I hope that it helps folks make the most of their tour. And really, one of the big ideas in the book is that college isn't just something that you navigate like a maze, it's actually something that you design and create that you have choices over and you can exercise creativity in.

even if sometimes it may seem that way and may feel more like an obstacle course. And that journey of design, of creating what happens in college, it actually starts before you get there. And one of those steps is the admissions tour because like one of the big ideas in design is that you're trying things out, right? And the admissions tour is a way to try out college. There's lots of other ways, summer study, take a class,

visit overnight and so on and so forth. But think of the tour as a way to try out college and do that not just by being told, but being shown. So I think one of the important things to do is, yes, you go on the tour, yes, you go to the info session, but that's scripted and that's them telling you with their best foot forward. So you wanna get beyond that. And so you can ask them,

Where should I go to see what you're saying firsthand? So ask them, is there a dining hall you can eat in? Is there a quad you can go to? Is there a class you can sit in on? So ask for opportunities for them to show, not just tell. I think another thing is you can ask about, when you talk to people, especially students, what do they expect?

When they got there, why did they choose it? You know, and did the college or university deliver on those expectations? You know, what, what surprised them, you know, in a good way, or maybe in a, in a not so good way, what's, what's the same, what's different, what's better. And I think the third thing you can ask is, is really try and hone in on some of the things that are barriers to a successful journey through college.

Elliot (07:13.933)
And I see this in my work all the time. I think students may struggle to feel a sense of belonging, like they're part of the community, or they may struggle to find support, whether it's time management or help on a class assignment or analyzing data or making a great presentation, or they may also not see what they're doing in a class connects with a career path. And so ask about those things like,

How do you, like how do people get involved to find community? How do people find their people? How, you know, is there a, like, what's the sense of belonging on campus? You know, where do students go to find support? You know, is it the library? Is it a student success center? Is it somewhere else? And like, how do students explore career paths? Like go to the career center. Is there a class on career exploration?

So those would be my recommendations.

Gary (08:15.972)
So is it reasonable to make the analogy that the college admission rep is really a sales and marketing rep that are painting the best picture, you know, just like, Elliot, when you and I go to buy a car, that's sales and marketing rep. They're telling you, boy, this baby can hum. Is that kind of the same role that college admission reps are feeling?

Elliot (08:30.15)
Yeah.

Elliot (08:34.553)
It is, and I don't, I mean, I don't think of sales as a, as a bad thing at all, but I think, you know, it would be like, to use the car analogy, it would be like only taking the sales reps word for it and not going on a test drive. Right. So you, you want to go, uh, experience the things they're telling you about. Uh, and I think one of my old colleagues at bright spot used to say space.

Gary (08:38.806)
Right.

Gary (08:49.218)
Great point.

Elliot (09:03.201)
is an organization's body language. And I think there's just so much you can learn by spending time on a campus, kind of going off the grid of the scripted info session and the tour and just wandering around certain spaces. You can even take initiative and set up some appointments and meet with people in a department you might study in or wherever it might be, or maybe somebody who

has a background similar to yours. Let's say you're a student athlete or a student veteran or a first gen student, make contact or transfer student, make contact in any of those centers. But yeah, I think you wanna do your homework. In addition to listening to that car sales rep, you wanna take the test drive, you wanna talk to other people who've bought that car, you wanna read the reviews online.

all those all those sorts of things.

Gary (10:03.79)
Okay. And tip 12 in your book, How to Get the Most Out of College is look for a one-stop shop. Now I'm assuming, I'm assuming Elliot, you're not talking about the quick trip where I can get gasoline and food and even a delicatessen sandwich. What do you mean by look for a one-stop shop?

Elliot (10:20.793)
Well, One Stop Shop is a little bit of a, it is a little bit higher ed jargon, um, which I try to use plain English wherever possible in the book, but that's maybe, that's maybe a place where I, uh, fell into that trap. But I think the, the thing that's happening with college is it's getting more and more complicated and students need help and

institutions want to help them. So they create different services or departments or centers or offices. It may be a center for first generation students. It may be a center for student veterans. It may be a center for transfer students, you know, or it may be about, you know, how you enroll for classes or how you pay your bill or how you get financial aid. All these different help places to get help can be really confusing. And.

there's really good evidence that when colleges or universities bring these help functions together, it really benefits students. So, you know, for instance, because all these things are related, you know, if you're a student, maybe you go to register for classes and there's a registration hold. So you go figure out what that is and they say, oh, it looks like you have a balance on your bill. So you have a, you can't, you can't.

You can't enroll yet or you can't register yet. And so then you go to student financial services and they say, Oh yes, it looks like, you know, the reason we put that hold on is because, uh, one of your loans didn't come through. So then you go to financial aid and you figure out that there was a typo in your social security number. And so if you have to go to three different websites or three different calls or three different places, you're kind of getting shuffled around. You're getting the run around.

And finding a college or university that brings these different support services together, uh, really helps. And one study found that, uh, there's a three percent, three percentage point, uh, retention bump in first year, uh, retention, first to second year retention. So continuing onto your second year, which, you know, only four out of five students do nationally. Um, so you're really looking for a college that's focused on you.

Elliot (12:47.365)
that's bringing together the different ways they can support you to make it better for you as a student. And it may be those different administrative functions, which are like kind of the business of college, the business of being a student. Uh, but it may also be academics. It may be like finding a college that has a library that also has like a writing center or a presentation center or a stats lab in the library. So when you go there, you can get help.

not just like with your studying or finding sources for a paper, but how do you make that final presentation better? How do you better analyze the data? How do you clarify the thesis for your paper or how do you punch up the lines in your skit for the video you're about to shoot?

Gary (13:38.279)
Yeah.

NO retention and graduation rates are a big deal these days. And I talk about that a lot for those listening for those listening today. I think Tip Number 16 is a biggie and Tip Number 16 in the book, How to Get the Most Out of College by our guest, Elliot Felix, is look for scholarship opportunities. Well, that's a duh. We all want to do that. Why don't you focus on Elliot if you can is these scholarship opportunities. Can you explain the difference between funded and unfunded scholarships?

Elliot (13:44.049)
That's it.

Elliot (14:09.241)
Yeah. And I think, you know, our mutual friend, Mark Salisbury, who started TuitionFit to, you know, to make the price of college more transparent, has a great way of explaining that when it comes to college, you know, price used to mean the same thing as cost and that price used to be a pretty darn good indicator of quality, but then, you know,

20, 30 years ago, institutions began varying the price that one student pays relative to another as a way to manage their enrollment. And that grew into a whole profession and discipline. And once prices were varying based on the student not just their ability to pay, but their background, their credentials,

GPA, their SAT or ACT scores, this whole complex equation, then students could start receiving what's often called merit aid to attract them. And that aid usually comes in the form of a tuition discount. So it's an unfunded scholarship in that it's basically a college is raising their price only to then lower it.

for you so you feel like you're getting a buy, so you feel like you're getting a deal. So it's not actually any money out of their pocket, it's just discounting uninflated or increased price. Whereas funded scholarships are where money's actually changing hands. It could be a foundation, it could be your state, it could be your city, it could be your church, whatever.

you know, is funding part of your education by literally, uh, you know, transferring those funds from them to your college and that's coming off your, your bill. And I think the bottom line is, uh, one of the reasons you're looking for scholarships is you're looking for value. You know, you're looking for a return on your investment of time and money in college.

Gary (16:36.562)
And one of the things I know, the College Viability app is of course the product that I make available to all sorts of different audiences. And one of the reports I have in that is something called unfunded institutional grants, which is just a fancy way of saying discounts. And one of the patterns I see is that many, many colleges, that number has gone up sometimes tens of millions of dollars. And that's great for students. Don't get me wrong. That's fabulous for students to get that massive discount. You call it merit aid, call it scholarships,

Elliot (16:49.885)
Mm-hmm.

Gary (17:05.996)
it whatever you want. But that does have a back end consequence and that is our college is able to afford to provide you, to provide your students, your family with the quality education that they want and deserve. There was a story, Iowa Wesleyan University closed this past spring. Their enrollment had grown 300 students over the last eight years or so, but they had discounted their tuition so much.

that they couldn't afford to stay open. And I worry about that happening for more places. And from my perspective, that's one of the questions you wanna ask, are you having, I'm paraphrasing, is kind of a crude way to ask it. Are you giving away the store to get students to enroll?

Elliot (17:44.141)
Yeah, yeah. And a few, I mean, a few years ago, we crossed a really, I think, a rather important threshold, which is nationally, the discount rate, the average discount rate exceeded 50%. So as of a few years ago, colleges, you know, in terms of the actual price that students were paying, it then averaged less than half of what the advertised price is.

Gary (18:14.398)
If only we could get that kind of deal for our car. So tip number 66. Of course, we don't go to college for the courses. We mostly go to college for the degrees, but even more important than that, the career. And so tip 66 says narrow your focus toward a major and career over time. What does that look like from your perspective, Elliot?

Elliot (18:17.262)
Yeah.

Elliot (18:37.029)
Well, I think, you know, for a lot of students, you know, you, you kind of work in steps, right? And at first getting to college, getting in college is the goal. And then you move the goalposts and it's graduation. And I think it's worth moving it further out and talking about a meaningful and rewarding career and life as the goals.

and graduate, you know, getting to college, graduating from college as, you know, as steps to get there. And so you really want to think about career as early as possible. And, um, that does two things. First, it gives you a sense of purpose. I think if you have, if you have some sense of what you're shooting for,

why you're in college. And it's always a mix of reasons, right? It's the skills, it's the knowledge, it's the network, it's the credential, it's the career. But that can be so helpful in giving you a sense of purpose like, I'm interested in data analytics because I'm going to go into marketing. Then your classes connect to a career.

Gary (19:52.182)
Right.

Elliot (19:56.233)
And it feels like you're part of something. It helps you contribute to a sense of belonging. It helps you maybe find a club or a student organization to join or maybe one day lead. And then that purpose also, the second thing it does is it gives you focus so that you can graduate on time. Because what you want to do early is explore a lot. You want to kind of cast the net wide early in your coursework, in your clubs, in your networking.

try a bunch of stuff out and then narrow your focus because it's the changing directions late that becomes really costly. Because then you realize, you know, I'm not gonna be a business major, I'm gonna be a nursing major. And there may not be enough overlap in the courses you took in your first couple of years.

Gary (20:47.053)
Right.

Elliot (20:54.225)
for you to then be able to graduate on time. So now you're paying for an extra semester or two of tuition. So that it gives you purpose from that purpose, you get belonging, you get connection. And the way that can look is that early exploration, maybe there's, maybe you know, you wanna something to do with understanding people.

Right? So you can take an anthro class, you can take a site class, you can take a sociology class. They're all part of the social sciences. They're different ways of looking at people. And there's enough overlap there where, you know, those credits will be useful. You know, on any of those directions.

Gary (21:41.066)
So, tip 114, and this one, these next two are for dedicated groups. Tip 114 is for vets, military veterans. And it says, engage in college life. Don't just go to class and go back home. What's the reason for that guidance, Elliot?

Elliot (22:01.201)
Well, a lot of student veterans are older. They may have families. They may have other work responsibilities. So they're often balancing a lot with school. And there also may feel a certain kind of separation from an 18 to 21-year-old student who may be.

hasn't served or has different life experience and or different responsibilities. And so what happens sometimes because of that separation and because of those responsibilities, student veterans might see college as kind of something to get done. And they go to class, go to campus and leave to take care of everything else. And...

You know, while I totally understand all those, you know, those other, the push and pull of family and work versus school, um, you do miss out on parts of college that keep you connected to it. Um, especially, you know, in terms of meeting people, mentor, you know, classmates, peers, mentors, and, um,

And that's a really important part of college, right? What you do outside of the classroom is just as important as what you do in it. And it may be in a club. It may be a meeting with a mentor. It may be, um, those might lead to an internship. Those might help you figure out more about who you are or what you want to do. Um, and so even if you have limited time, pick your spots to do more than.

uh, just go to class because that connection, that's how you find value, but it's also how you find belonging and the students who don't make it through college are often The ones that don't feel that sense of connection when The going gets tough, right when you get a, you know, you get a bad grade or Something happens out of school or breakup whatever it might be That um, that support network

Elliot (24:19.209)
is what gets you through. And it's tough to build it if your only opportunity is your classes.

Gary (24:27.295)
Yeah, that makes perfect sense. And then one.

Elliot (24:29.209)
And I think there are ways to get, you know, most colleges have an SVA, a student veterans association chapter or a student veteran center. So you can find your people that way. You know, then you can branch out. And even if it's going to a couple of events per semester, you know, most folks can swing that.

Gary (24:52.386)
The last tip I want to talk about is tip 124, and it intrigued me, Felix, excuse me, Elliot, because of its focus on athletes. And it says, look for, this is for college athletes, look for a two-way relationship with your athletic program. What does that mean, and why should student athletes look to do that?

Elliot (25:11.705)
Well, you know, the overall message in how to get the most out of college is that you college isn't something you navigate. It's something you design and create in order to take full advantage of all the, all the things your colleges and universities offer. And in that spirit, I think there there's a, a special role and a special way that student athletes, especially in division one.

engage with their college or university. In addition to their studies, they give a lot to their school through their sport. College is more than a give to get transaction, but I think it's good to look for something in return. Colleges and universities provide so much to their students that they can take advantage of and often special opportunities for student

asking about and finding out about and participating in things like leadership development, leadership training, career services, networking with alums. I think that's something that student athletes can be proactive about and sort of see like what do I get in return and let's make this a two-way relationship.

I'm getting out as much as I put in, which is a lot.

Gary (26:44.342)
Right. So we look at some tips from how to get the most out of college. 127 ways. We didn't get to all 127. 127 ways. We'll do that.

Elliot (26:53.373)
That's okay. That would take a long time, Gary. I like, I love the selection you picked. Yeah.

Gary (26:58.07)
We'll do that tomorrow. We'll do the rest of them tomorrow. I have a couple of questions that are kind of in the context, the bigger picture context of higher education. And Elliot, you know that I do work on the research on the financial health and viability of colleges, just from your perspective. What questions in this day when colleges are closing and many, many have financial challenges, what kind of questions about colleges, financial health, or enrollment or outcomes?

would you encourage students and their families to ask as part of the admissions tour or the admissions follow-ups?

Elliot (27:33.529)
Well, I think, you know, we touched on some of this as we talked about discount rates and, and enrollment and so forth. But I think that, you know, what you're trying to do is you're trying to learn about stuff you can't readily see. And it, you know, it sort of reminds me when I was straight out of college, I moved to New York city. And as, as I was, as I was apartment hunting, um, before there were great tools on the internet to find them. Um,

Gary (27:37.975)
Right.

Gary (28:00.039)
Ha ha ha.

Elliot (28:02.917)
bit of a different world, but you know, the, the advice I got from a friend who was a broker is never rent an apartment that's empty because New York real estate is such that there's almost unlimited demand. So unless the apartment has just been renovated or there's some specific reason, when you walk into an apartment that's empty, that doesn't have the former tenants still there, that means there's something wrong with that place that you can't see.

You know, maybe it's got mice, it's got a leak, it's next to a subway, and they just happen to bring you at the perfect time when the train isn't rumbling by. But you can kind of rely on the wisdom of the crowd to say, gosh, if nobody else picked this place, what's wrong with it that I'm not seeing? And I feel like that's kind of what your, that sort of mindset, I mean, not that you have to be overly skeptical, but I think like,

looking for what you can't see about a college's viability, I think is a healthy thing. And I would look two ways, look at it in two ways. One is look at the enrollment because it's a great way to see if the wind is, which way the wind is blowing. Like, is it increasing? Is it holding steady or declining? Because I think that's certainly a measure.

of organizational health. And I think as you've shown, there are ways for people to kind of inflate that, right, by discounting the tuition at an unsustainable rate to get the numbers up. But I think enrollment's a good place to start. And then the other thing is I would look at the outcome measures and how they're trending. And like the tools, like the college viability is a great tool to look at things and...

Gary (29:36.726)
Right.

Elliot (29:56.457)
like retention rate, graduation rates, are they increasing, are they holding steady, are they declining? What about starting salaries from things like the college scorecard where you can look at, what does an average grad make in the majors you're contemplating?

Gary (30:08.472)
Yep.

Gary (30:17.538)
Yeah. Well now, Elliott, it's time to put on your brilliant person hat. I'm gonna reach for that off and you off to the side. I saw it.

Elliot (30:22.989)
Okay. I didn't know I was supposed to be off the, you know, the earlier part of the podcast.

Gary (30:30.744)
So I'm going to ask you a question for just three questions.

Elliot (30:36.797)
Go for it.

Gary (30:37.538)
There were four, three different groups. And the first one, if there was only one and one only piece of advice you could give to a student starting that college search or in college, what would that one single piece of your best brilliant advice be?

Elliot (30:54.161)
Um, well, I think from the, from the student perspective, I get this question a lot because, you know, maybe 127 tips is too many. So people always want, you know, what people even want a shorter list of that. But what I always say is work on real world projects in your classes. So let's say you're taking a marketing class and you could do a social media strategy for a fictitious company.

Gary (31:07.854)
I'm going to go ahead and turn it off.

Elliot (31:23.417)
or you could create a logo for a fictitious company, or you could go find a startup or a nonprofit in the community that needs your help. And I think when you get to apply what you're learning in a class in the real world, it's like one of these rare things where like one plus one equals 11. It's magical because you, all of a sudden, you get to make an impact.

You get a project in your portfolio, which helps you get a job. You build skills, you know, to create that strategy, to create that logo, that whatever the brand, whatever it might be. And of course this applies, you know, in lots of different classes. Um, but you also build relationships and you build a network, right? Cause you're talking to real people with real problems. You know, maybe that startup or that nonprofit, like maybe they need an intern this summer. And, um,

And who knows where it can lead. And there's just so many, so many benefits from, uh, from this. And one study I cite in the book found that in today's dollars, students who work on projects like these that have a, you know, that have an impact, um, they get a 10 K starting salary bump and they get hired faster.

Gary (32:44.126)
Interesting, interesting. Same question for parents, because parents of course are trying to balance that price issue for colleges, whether they're public or private, and what the love of their lives or children want to do with their college education. So what's a brilliant piece of advice, one and only one, you would give to parents?

Elliot (32:51.899)
Yeah.

Elliot (33:03.545)
I would say remember that you already did your job and now it's time to let go. And you can't go to school for your kid, but you can support them. You can ask questions. You can give them advice and encouragement along the way. And when you do, remember that college is very different than when you went. If you went, it's more complicated, it's more competitive, it's more costly. I think one of the...

Gary (33:10.55)
Ha ha ha.

Elliot (33:33.485)
One of those statistics that you just can't unlearn once you read it from the opportunity insights project is that a couple of generations ago, you had a 90, a 30 year old had a 90% chance of making more, you know, having a higher standard of living than their parents. And now it's down to a 50, 50 shot. So it's just, it's just a very different world.

and you've prepared them as best you could and focus on advice, support, encouragement, but don't get in the weeds and don't do it for them for any number of reasons, one of which is that it's a lot different than the experience you had.

Gary (34:26.03)
Just with the first two responses, Elliot, you have earned a star on your brilliant person hand. Those are good responses. Last question. We've got good luck on this next one. So same question, but we're going to try and change the focus a little bit here. One piece of advice.

Elliot (34:32.705)
Oh, thank you. Let's see if we can do a three for three here.

Gary (34:42.934)
to college leaders in the overall schema thing as they try and make that college experience, either the admissions piece or the actual college experience itself better, what would that one piece, if every college president in the world said, Elliot, I'll do what you say, what would you say?

Elliot (34:59.577)
Well, in the same way that in how to get the most out of college, I try to have students approach their journey through college as a design problem as, and college as this thing that they, they create, I think leaders in higher ed can approach student success as a, as a design problem and design is about moving from, you know, a current state and imagining and creating a better one.

by understanding people and thinking holistically to make connections and try things out. And I think that gives leaders the playbook, right? You start by understanding your students and their needs and how they're changing and it's interviews, it's focus groups, it's observations, it's surveys, it's looking at the data, whether it's, you know, who's logging into their classes, who's studying in the library, who's going to the events and is engaged.

then it's finding ways to make those connections with programs, with initiatives, where it's greater than the sum of the parts. Like, how can you make exploring careers part of your classes, rather than something you expect students to do in free time that they don't have? So, maybe you bring in alumni to speak and

as part of classes, and then students get a sense of how what they're learning, you know, applies in a role that they might want to play. Maybe they meet a role model, maybe they meet a mentor, then the alumni, they feel better connected to the institution as well. So that like, that connecting ideas and thinking holistically, I think is so important and

where you're trying things out, you're learning as you fail, you pivot when you do, you scale up when you have success and think of things as, you know, prototype it, pilot it, learn quickly, scale up. So I think student success is a design problem and I think leaders in higher ed can solve for it, you know, by better understanding people, making connections and prototyping and...

Elliot (37:27.265)
and piloting and learning along the way.

Gary (37:30.366)
And then in the two minutes we have left, you just released an online course about how to get the most out of college. Can you tell us what that's all about and what value it will provide to those who want to purchase that?

Elliot (37:42.041)
Well, value is the key word, Gary, because my mission is student success, whether I'm working with an institution or I'm working with students and families. And I think, you know, success is about getting value for your time and effort. And one way to measure value is return on investment. So I was really looking for a way to.

provide more insight than I can in the book in a more interactive way with students and families and help them figure out where to go to college based on how to go to college, because both are important. And all these tips in the, you referred to it as a how-to guide, those give you clues as to what to look for when you're applying. So the courses is all about

getting the best return on investment from college by applying to the right ones. And as you might guess, a lot of the things that we've been talking about, real world projects, mentoring, internships, alumni network, career services, these are a lot of the things that folks can look for. And the first session talks about this approach. The second set.

session talks about what to look for. And then the third is tools to look for it, including the college viability app that we've been talking about or tuition fit that I mentioned earlier and college scorecard and lots of other great resources that I pulled together.

Gary (39:26.642)
Well, Elliot Felix has been our guest on this episode of This Week in College Viability, his 2022 book on how to get the most out of college, 127 ways to make connections, make it work for you and make a difference is his, it's good, it's worth getting, it's worth. If you're investing tens of thousands in college, spend a couple extra bucks to make sure you can pick up and use some of the tips in Elliot's book. Elliot, always a pleasure. We'll look forward to talking to you next time.

Elliot (39:52.945)
Hey, thanks, Gary, and good luck to you as well.